Dion “Devious” Norman grew up in Hollygrove as hip-hop started to take hold of New Orleans, giving him a front-row seat to early groups like the Ninja Crew and dance crews like the Hollygrove Creepers. After the Ninja Crew disbanded, Devious began performing and recording his own music with DJ Baby T in the late 1980s and early ‘90s.
After the release and popularity of DJ Irv and MC T Tucker’s “Where Dey At,” considered the first bounce music release, Devious was hired to produce another song in the new party style. Derrick “Mellow Fellow” Ordogne pointed Devious to DJ Jimi, who was a fixture at Newton’s in Uptown and had picked up on “Where Dey At” and was adding his own vocals and spin.
Devious, Mellow Fellow and DJ Jimi dropped “(The Original) Where They At” and the B-side “Bitch’s Reply” in 1992 on Soulin’ Records. Both songs have now been sampled by numerous artists, including Beyonce, Cardi B and City Girls.
Devious is a multi-time ASCAP Award winner and continues to record his own music, including his latest mixtape, “Memories 3.” Gambit spoke with Norman at length about his work, early New Orleans hip-hop and the start of bounce music. Turns out, he isn’t just a legendary musician, he’s also a walking encyclopedia of New Orleans hip-hop history, sharing with us the records the city was listening to in the ’80s and early ’90s, naming the artists starting out their careers, and demonstrating the importance of Hollygrove to hip-hop.
We are presenting this Q&A in two parts. In part one, Devious told us about the early years of hip-hop and bounce in New Orleans, watching DJ Irv, and how he came to work with DJ Jimi.
Gambit: What was your first exposure to hip-hop?
Dion “Devious” Norman: When I was in elementary, I used to listen to hip-hop on local radio shows. They had an AM radio show, and they had WAIL (105 FM) and DJ Slick Leo. He would DJ, and the same music you heard in New York, you heard it here. So DJ Slick Leo, he was one of the first DJs to play hip-hop in New Orleans.
They also had a few clubs, so some of our older brothers and uncles and aunts, they went out to the clubs and they had the music they’d hear on mixtapes.
I grew up in Hollygrove, and there was a guy named Ghost. He was the owner of Ghost Town, the club where bounce was started. But before bounce started, Ghost used to throw concerts. The name of his company was Ghost Productions, and he threw all of the hip-hop concerts at the Municipal Auditorium.
So New Orleans has been connected to hip-hop from the beginning. We saw KRS-One, MC Shan, LL Cool J, Big Daddy Kane, Eric B. & Rakim, Slick Rick, Run-DMC, 2 live Crew — all of these cats came to New Orleans from the beginning. I saw all of these cats between middle school and my introductory days in high school.
And not only that: All of the fashion designers in New Orleans — Rubensteins, All American Jeans — they had different stores and jewelry shops that sold all the same gear. They had Run-DMC jogging suits. They had rope chains. The silk suits. The Bally shoes. They had different cats in the city that were cutting the flat tops.
New Orleans was basically the down south cousin to New York without it really being known.
Devious with his platinum record for Cardi B’s ‘Bickenhead,’ which samples DJ Jimi’s ‘Bitch’s Reply.’
Gambit: How did you come to start making your own music?
Devious: When I was in the sixth grade, I started rapping in the classroom with another guy who ended up being a super-duper producer. His name was Donald “XL” Robertson. He owns XL Productionz. He was a big producer for Master P. Me, Donald and a guy named Hound — he was known as Full Blooded when he rapped for No Limit — we used to freestyle in the classroom, like fifth and sixth grade.
And while we were doing that, Gregory D, Sporty T and DJ Baby T started a group called the Ninja Crew. Most of these cats were from Hollygrove — I think Greg is from another area and Sporty was from Uptown, but they would all be in Hollygrove by Baby T and DJ Kenny D’s home with the Technics 1200s. They made the first hip-hop record in New Orleans, “We Destroy” and “Baby T Rock.” I heard that record on one of those radio stations, and that is when the fire started.
You also had New York Incorporated with Mannie Fresh, DJ Wop and Mia X. So New York Incorporated and Ninja Crew, that’s like the first groups, and then you have Jam Patrol and the Brown Clowns.
Coincidentally, I would see [Ninja Crew] perform around town at some of the high school festivals and things like that. One weekend they had a show out of town — because they were signed with a label from Florida called 4 Sight Records — and I went to Xavier Prep’s dance, and they had the Brown Clowns. They were early staples in hip-hop, too.
Xavier Prep’s dance was like the biggest dance you could go to outside of McDonogh 35 and (John F.) Kennedy’s dance. And I asked the guy, “Could I rap?” I knew the Ninja Crew wasn’t going to be there — I was kind of fearful to rap in front of them, at first — so I freestyled off of two tracks. I freestyled off Mantronix’s “Fresh is the Word,” and I freestyled off “Drag Rap” by The Showboys.
When I freestyled off these raps at Xavier Prep, one of the guys in the audience was a member of the early hip-hop dance group called the Hollygrove Creepers. It was like the biggest dance group in the city, them and Dragon Master Showcase, which are known for going to “Showtime at The Apollo” and doing a more breakdancing, acrobatic style. The Hollygrove Creepers was more into a Uprock-type of dancing and urban dancing.
I rocked Xavier Prep. I called people’s name out in the audience, and I didn’t know the impact of what I did. I go home, and a couple days later, DJ Baby T knocks on my door. And he says, “Hey yo, man, I heard you rocked Xavier Prep the other night. Wanna make a record?”
I jumped into the Mercedes-Benz with him, and he takes me to Sea-Saint Studios. I meet the people there — Baby T’s cousin had some kind of R&B single out on Atlantic Records with a couple of songwriters that were at Sea-Saint Studios.
Around this time, the Ninja Crew is about to break up, or it’s about to reform in a sense. Something went on between Greg, Sporty and Baby T, and now, it’s just Sporty T and Baby T. Greg is about to get in a group with another close friend of ours, Mannie Fresh and DJ Wop. The one group is now becoming two groups. We were still all friends, even though something had happened with them as a group.
It was going to be me, Sporty T and Baby T as the Ninja Crew. But Sporty decided that he didn’t want to do it, and he was going to go do sheet rock with his family’s business. But he gave me the green light. He says, “Yo, Imma be here to support you, little brother, but I’m gonna go do this sheet rock, and you and Baby T can do it.” That’s how we became Baby T & Devious D.
That’s when I made “Street Life” (in 1989). That ended up being on the radio and being on the “Star Wars” program on (WYLD) FM 98. We did Jazz Fest (in 1991) and all of that.
Around the same time, Warren Mayes is getting ready to make his first couple of records. And 39 Posse is getting ready to make their first couple of records. And you have others like MC L, DJ Rob Fresh, and Little Ham, who used to be with Polo (Silk). And you have Bust Down and Ice Mike and Tim Smooth and MC Thick. And that’s the original rap music before bounce.
Me and Baby T ended up getting a distribution deal with SDEG [Records] out of California. That’s the same company that distributed MC Breed’s first song, “Ain’t No Future in Yo Frontin’.”
We put together the record (“Down With the Program”), but the record was delayed from getting put out. They [wanted to] shop me a deal at first because the record was that dynamic. It was early — we made the record in like ’88-’89, but the record didn’t come out until DJ Jimi came out.
Baby T got tired of waiting for the deal to clear, so he got frustrated. He changed his name to DJ Lil Daddy. Around then, I’d met Tim Smooth at a concert I was doing. Tim Smooth pretended he wanted to battle me, but once we started talking, he said, “I just wanted you to check me out.” Once I heard him rap, I told Baby T, this dude is super dope.
Me, Tim, DJ Too Cool and Baby T were still hanging out, so some of the music that was meant for [the Baby T & Devious D] second album as well as some stuff that DJ Too Cool and Tim Smooth had, it all came together. DJ Baby T, now known as DJ Lil Daddy, becomes the producer, and he makes the first EP for Tim Smooth, “I Gotsta’ Have It” (in 1991).
He makes “I Gotsta’ Have It” and he calls [Gregory D]. And he gets Greg to give him the hook up with the distribution company that Gregory D and Mannie Fresh had with their (1989) album “D Rules the Nation,” which is a company called Yo! Records out of Dallas. That’s how Tim Smooth’s initial release comes out on Yo! Records. “I Gotsta’ Have It” is a classic EP in New Orleans, and it inks Tim Smooth as one of the dopest rappers in the South.
But we were all still friends. That’s the whole thing about all this: We were all still friends.
Greg and Mannie were doing their thing with “Buck Jump Time,” and they have all these records, and they’re getting national deals. Bust Down is starting to break out with “Putcha Ballys On” and “Nasty B,” and MC Thick is starting break out with “Marrero” and Ice Mike starts to break out with “I Got Game.”
It started with the Ninja Crew and New York Incorporated. That morphed into Baby T & Devious D, and our music went outside of Louisiana, it went to other regions.
So after our record goes out, now I’m on the label because I’m the rapper. The label is like “You’re the rapper, you got to do another album,” and they give me access to two studios, Sea-Saint Studios and Sound Services Studios that was on Downman Road. It was a studio built because one of the engineers didn’t like to hear profanity. His name was Marc Hewitt. He ended up being our engineer at both spots.
Reggie Toussaint and Marc Hewitt recorded my initial recordings. But now I need a new producer. I could still work with DJ Baby T, but he’s doing more work now with Tim Smooth and MC Thick. So I get Full Pack. I get Precise and (Full Pack’s) DJ Don Juan, because Precise is from Hollygrove and he made my demo when I was in middle school that helped me win a talent show with a couple of my friends.
DJ Mellow Fellow is close friends with Baby T, they went to middle school together, he’s like the chauffeur for the group and I didn’t know he DJ’d. But one day, he knocks on my door and he asked me if he could audition to take the DJ spot. I went by his crib and heard him DJ, and I told him, “Yeah, you can be my DJ, but I already got the ideas for my album. Precise and Don Juan are gonna produce the album, but me and you can come up with the ideas and we’ll brainstorm. You can be the DJ, and you can scratch on the records.”
So we went by Precise and the Full Pack apartment and made a new album. “Life from a Devious Perspective” was going to be the name of my solo album. Fiend says “Life from a Devious Perspective” is some of the best hip-hop he’s ever heard. But again, they shopping the deal.
We make this album. I do two Jazz Fest performances singing certain songs from it. But I never get to release it because they’re shopping me a deal.
In the midst of them shopping me a deal, bounce music and this party music type of sound is starting to come out. And in New Orleans, you got DJ Irv, he’s mixing records together that blew up in the club, that blew up in Ghost Town.
A Polo Silk photo of MC T Tucker and DJ Irv
Gambit: Could you tell me more about Ghost Town? What was that live scene like?
Devious: It was packed whenever you opened it up. It was a couple of clubs: Ghost Town, Big Man’s, Club 49, Detour, Club Charlies. These are all adult barrooms, and none of them catered to rap music. They were playing the oldies but goodies, the blues and stuff. But because Ghost was involved with rap concert promotion — he had a limo service also — he was a little flexible. Him and the guy who owned Big Man’s, they were flexible. They allowed certain DJs to come in and play a little hip-hop here and there.
DJ Irv was from the 7th Ward, and once he started coming into the club, he started playing hip-hop. He started playing the Showboys, (Mantronix’s) “Fresh is the Word,” the instrumental to A Tribe Called Quest (“Check The Rhime”). He would play NWA, a few of the New York records, a few of the old school records that we like, like Rodney-O and Eric B. & Rakim, “Paid in Full.” He would play those types of records.
The initial scene was we were just partying to hip-hop. But Ghost, he wanted to add something to it, so he started a freestyle battle for $150. So me and Black Menace — J-Dawg and Threat — would get up there, and Ghost would make us go solo because Black Menace was a group and I was a solo artist. I might win, J-Dawg might win, Threat might win, but we’d go to the bar and spend the money together because we were that close. I would also go to Warren Mayes’ club and I’d win his freestyle battle and win $250. I used to sneak out late at night and go there and follow my brothers and his friends on Tulane and win that battle.
Me and Black Menace used to win all the freestyle battles at Ghost Town. We used to rap off “Triggerman” (aka The Showboys’ “Drag Rap”) and “Brown Beats” (by Cameron Paul) and another sample, the “Check the Rhime” sample.
We left to go do shows out of town, because Black Menace was another group that was early in making records. They were on Hollygrove Records, and they were signed by Gary Holzenthal, the owner of Odyssey Records (who produced an unreleased album).
So one weekend, we had to leave and go do a show in Lafayette, and when we left to go do the show, T Tucker comes into Ghost Town. When he comes into Ghost Town, he gets on the mic and he interpolates Ice Cube’s song “N**** You Love to Hate.” And this is around the same time that David Duke is running for office in Louisiana.
He gets on the mic, and they think it’s a joke because there was another guy who used to get on the mic and tell jokes and dress like a woman. He would win the freestyle battle whenever the real rappers weren’t there. He’d win the money that Ghost was giving away.
T Tucker comes in the club and [starts to perform] on top of the pool table. DJ Irv is still the DJ. He’s playing The Showboys instrumental, the same one that he played when the rappers were there. Now, it’s weird because [T Tucker] doesn’t really rap, but he’s interpolating Ice Cube. Cube had just broke up with NWA and made an album (“AmeriKKKa’s Most Wanted”), and one of the songs on the album was “N**** You Love to Hate.”
So T Tucker [interpolates the hook] and the people are going crazy. And as the weeks progress, he’s adding more lyrics. He goes from “I’m the n****” to “boot up and shut up” to “fuck David Duke.” And then he started singing the bouncy stuff.
The club, once hip-hop started playing, it was mostly Hollygrove and Uptown people in it, but it was packed. When T Tucker won that competition as a substitute entertainer that night, the whole city came to Ghost Town after that. [Irv and T Tucker] started putting the performance on Maxell tapes, and that’s when my friend (Aaron) Charlot comes in at. Charlot was the executive. He’s also into high school officiating — he’s one of the supervisors of [Louisiana High School Athletic Association] officials. But Charlot did the deal with Irv and Tucker, so he took what was basically a mixtape performance and made it a retail record.
See, Irv was doing this with Tucker and Jimi. They had a whole underground circuit that nobody knew about. Jimi was making promises to Juvenile and Pimp Daddy that they were going to be on his album. They used to all hang out and do it together. Juvenile, Jimi, Pimp Daddy and all of them was already running it. And in the 10th Ward, you had Tucker, (Everlasting) Hitman and Jubilee. They were already running it. So there was an underground scene, but nobody knew about it because nothing was published.
The St. Thomas (Development) always talk about they invented bounce, but it wasn’t published. Nobody knew they were doing it. They were supposed to be doing it in all the projects — they used to get on the mic and rap in the same way we would get on the mic and rap at Ghost Town (in Hollygrove). It’s the same thing, but it’s just that they were doing different things on the mic than us: We rapping and they chanting.
Juvenile, Pimp Daddy, Everlasting Hitman, all of them was doing underground bouncy lyrics — I called it “project music” (because of where it was happening) — I never knew none of that was going on because I was working on this new album.
I’m still doing this new album, so I’m not paying attention as the music is starting to change, from lyrical or early day hip-hop to party music and raunchy lyrics. I’m not paying attention to that or how it’s gonna impact me.
I finish my album, and I go to the studio and they say, “Hey man, you gotta make a booty record” — that’s what they called it. I’m social commentary. I make all kinds of records, but I’ve always been freestyle, lyrical, metaphor, more East Coast, West Coast kind of rapper. My music is always thematic. It always had a storyline. So I’m like, I’m not putting that on my album. But they said, go find somebody.
DJ Mellow Fellow tells me, “Hey man, I know a dude who had something to do with starting that new party music in New Orleans.” So Mellow tells me to go and meet DJ Jimi, and Jimi takes me to his house on Freret Street, pulls out a VHS tape, and he’s singing “Where Dey At” with DJ Irv as the DJ on the tape.
And I’m looking at time stamp on the video and it’s around the same time that [DJ Irv] and Tucker are doing it. So I say, “I’m a hip-hop head. I don’t bite nobody’s music. We’re going to do it my way, and you’ve got to diss T Tucker because this is hip-hop. So if that’s your stuff, you’ve gotta go at T Tucker up top — or I’m not doing the record.”
That’s why the name of DJ Jimi’s song is “(The Original) Where They At” and that’s why the song starts off, “We gonna start this thing off right / We got DJ Jimi in the house tonight / Who’s the man with the master plan / The J – The I – The M – The I.” I wrote that introduction ‘cause this is hip-hop, and we’re going to do this like The Bronx.
I asked Full Pack to give me some records. I tell them, “I’m about to do something special, but I’m not gonna tell you about it until I get it together, because I don’t wanna let y’all down.” So me and Mellow went in the studio and spent like 40 hours making the single with DJ Jimi.
We were in the studio for about 40 hours recording two records (“Where They At” and “Bitch’s Reply”). We had to turn the lights down and make it club-like.
Once we made the record, it sold like 10,000 copies in three days. We were going to Lake Charles to judge a bikini contest, and Davey D (on WQUE 93 FM) played T Tucker and DJ Jimi on the radio back-to-back all night. He just thought it was so funny that they had two records that was similar and kinda going at each other. Tucker went to jail, and DJ Irv went on tour with DJ Jimi. That’s how close it was.
After I did the record, [Soulin’ Records] came to me and said, “We need an album in 30 days.” I said, “Stop. It’s time for my album to come out. Y’all asked me to do a single, and now you’re talking about putting my album to the side to do bounce. No, I’m not doing it. It’s time for my album to come out. And I want $30,000 — that’s $10,000 for me, $10,000 for Jimi and $10,000 for Mellow, and I need a drum machine because I’m gonna need Precise to help me make this record. But I’m not doing nothing, until we figure out what to do with my album.”
So they offered me a deal with Warlock Records. I took it to my lawyer, and he read my contract and told me, “Don’t sign it.” As a result, they send the $30,000, and I don’t get the money. They give a little bit to Jimi, a little bit to his aunt. And I say, “Well if you’re not going to give me the money, I’m not doing the album.” Me and Mellow walked out, and we didn’t do the album. So now the record company is mad that we didn’t do the album. They wanted 10 “Where They At.”
Now, Juvenile is an upcoming artist. He’s a teenager, and he was dating a friend or a relative of DJ Jimi. Precise was the guy who made my music, but he was also engineering at the studio Sound Services. So they ask Precise and Juvenile, and they saved the album (“It’s Jimi” released in 1992). Precise and Juvenile make the rest of the records — “Got it Going On,” “Project Bounce,” all them other records.
The only records me and Mellow made were the two hits, “Where They At” and “Bitch’s Reply.” They are the two songs that get sampled and interpolated. Those are the songs that everybody uses. The single was on the charts for 26 weeks, and DJ Jimi went on tour for two-and-a-half years without us.
So that’s how it started. Fast forward, I went on an independent career. I do music with Mousa, Fiend, Mr. Marcelo. I do music with Jason Neville. I work again with DJ Lil Daddy. I do my own music. I graduated from Xavier and ended up being a journalist for a little while for the Louisiana Weekly, and I’m going down a whole different route. End up being an educator — and still doing music, though.
And then everybody started sampling the music.
